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This page is dedicated entirely to a quality online debate between Dave Mckay and myself. My comments are in black and reflect the views of truechristianity.com
David's comments are in brownish red and often do not reflect my views. However we also agree in many areas. Dave has a very interesting site at jesuschristians.com that is well worth reading. His group is radically different to mainstream Christians.

Hi, Richard!

I visited your site yesterday, and I was quite impressed. It seems that what you are discussing in theory is pretty close to what we are actually doing. What doth hinder you from working WITH us?

What do you think of my article titled "How Boldly Should We Preach?" at the bottom of the page at http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/salvationb.htm

I think that something which may hamper the effectiveness of this article is that you appear to be drawing distinctions which Jesus did not draw. It is fair enough to relate the principles of what Jesus taught to life in the world today. However, it seems that you have tried to make some "jobs" good and others "bad" or some levels of wealth good and others bad, on the basis of conclusions which may not be immediately apparent to people reading this statement. I'll list some of the terms and phrases that I am talking about.

"Unnecessary things" suggests that it is okay to seek or receive money and wilfully spend it on "necessary things", although Jesus specifically targeted the "necessary things" in his sermon on the mount, when he talked of what we shall eat, what we shall drink, and what we shall wear.

The reference to a trade union appears to be listed as something quite apart from working for money. I can't imagine why someone would need to be in a trade union if they were NOT working for money (i.e. "seeking and receiving money"), but you have written it like it is a sin in itself, with or without money coming into the picture. I'm not clear on how you arrived at that conclusion.

"An unnecessary or evil industry" again suggests that everything you have said before that has certain exceptions, i.e. that it is okay to work for and receive money if you are employed in a "necessary and non-evil industry" (as long as you do not join the union). But did Jesus really make such distinctions? I don't think that the legitimacy of the industry was his concern. It seems that it was the motive for being there (i.e. to work for mammon, food, clothes, money, etc.) which he was concerned about.

The reference to "earning more than a pension" seems to set an arbitrary cut-off point between the wicked and the just... a cut-off that I do not find in the teachings of Jesus. In fact, a pensioner in Australia would be quite rich by world standards, and I think that God tends to judge by such universal standards rather than making cultural exceptions for those of us who happen to be born into rich families or into rich countries.


Hi Dave

Thanks for your letter and your comments.

I am trying to give the impression that it is wrong to be in or support a trade union. Some people not earning an income may support trade unions. I am trying to give the impression that it is worse to be in a trade union and seeking money than just seeking money alone.

Personally I can't see a problem if someone is paid an income more than a pension for their work if they were offered that work without looking for it, by a Christian in a useful industry (for example selling or growing healthy vegetables). That is if they use their income for God's will.

I also have a couple of friends in small businesses. One is selling vegetables and claims he gives 90% of his income to poor people in New Guinea who are Christians and supplies equipment like Bibles.

The other one is a sewing machine mechanic who also uses his income for Christian ministry. Many people use a sewing machine for useful purposes.

So these industries would not be considered to be corrupt like most others.

I would not tell people like this that they definitely have to give their occupations away as they are different to most other people. On the other hand for someone not in a paid occupation I would not advise them to seek to be in these industries. But for someone in them it could be ok if they are happy with it and it does not take over their lives.

If I advice people like these people that they must give their occupations away I may lose their support. It could be best for them to give them away but I would not be sure in these cases.

On the other hand if they were selling something that is unnecessary I would advice them to stop.

I have an explanation of what I mean concerning the pension at http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/share.htm
Does that make it clearer?

I probably should have stated the word approximately a pension like I have done in other articles. I could say, "If you earn much more than approximately a pension you are among approximately the wealthiest 5% of people in the world and earn higher than the medium income in wealthy countries." What do you think?

Should I ad on the end something like "Congratulations if you earn more than a pension by doing God's will if you use earning for God's will?"

Your help will be appreciated
Regards Richard

Hi, Richard!

I think that the concern I still have is the one that I mentioned in my first letter, and that is that it comes through that you are setting a few arbitrary cut-off lines between the good guys and the bad guys that are not based on the teachings of Jesus. It is very good that you use terms like "approximately" and "probably", but even these softer terms do not hide the problem.

I observed when I was quite young that people always define "greedy" as someone who has more money than they have. Someone asked John D. Rockefeller, one of the richest men in the world, what he thought was a reasonable income, at which people should be able to enjoy happiness, and his response was "Just a little more".

There is a verse at the end of the sermon on the mount, where it says that the people were impressed by the teaching of Jesus because he spoke with AUTHORITY, and not as the scribes and Pharisees. A person does not have to be arrogant to speak with authority, but they do need to sort through the issues and be prepared to call a spade a spade. Jesus did that. He called greed greed, and he did not include a lot of qualified exceptions.

You say, for example, that the Bible says that IF you have more income than MOST, you must use the EXCESS for God. Where does the Bible say that? You tell people that they can have a "reasonable house" and "some extras", (as long as they "don't waste"), that they can work part-time (IF they use their money correctly afterwards) and that they can work in certain safe industries, etc. etc. You have rightly explained to me that if you did not do this, you might lose the support of some of your friends, who are not prepared to forsake everything they own, taking no thought for food or clothing, and going out into all the world to preach the gospel. And this is always where the rot creeps in.

If you or I do not fall on the rock of Christ's teachings and let them break us TOTALLY, then the rock will one day fall on us, and the Bible says that it will grind us to powder. Jesus knew that the world would accept us if we compromised on the message, but he asks us to say it like it is, and to take him literally ourselves. The truth is not evolutionary, Richard. The truth is REVolutionary. Someone has said that having a little faith is like being a little bit pregnant. You either have it or you don't, and if you have it, then you can expect some big things to happen.

You suggest that the line between rich and poor is based on the medium in what you call the "wealthy" world, and you say that this line is equivalent to the pension and "just a little more". But, of course, if you took the medium line just in Australia, then you could have "just a little more" again. On the other hand, if you took the whole world, then you would find that you are about 45% ABOVE the medium line, or in the top 5%.

But the real question is why do we need a "medium" line in the first place? It's a good way to illustrate how rich we really are (because the rich always feel like they need "just a little more"), but the bottom line is that Jesus said nothing about medium lines. He was not teaching a theory that would only work if everyone did it (as in socialism), but he was teaching a standard for entry into his kingdom that would recognise God alone as our provider... not the government (through pensions), not an employer, not a cottage industry, not anything but God.

We have been living like this for many years now, and every time I hear about Christians who are supposedly in a money-making industry for God, I hear Jesus saying, "The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few." Despite this crazy lifestyle that we live, the need has always been for more workers and not for more money. And I think that that is how is has always been in God's kingdom.

I hope that I have not offended you in what I have said. I really would like to encourage you in the direction that you are heading. But I think that until you have the faith to hit your pension on the head, you are only going to be preaching something that others do not see you practising yourself.

Christian love and prayers,


Hi Dave

Thanks for your letter. The Bible tends to indicate equality and sharing of wealth. It indicates we need necessary things but not unnecessary ones.

1John 3:17 - But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? Luke 3:11 - He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the Apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

If I did not put the piece in about the pension this may not stir people who earn a middle income who think they are poor. It gives the bigger picture. What else could I say? Could I say "Congratulations If by doing God's will, you earn more than what is only needed to survive healthily, if use all that excess money for God's will." What is only needed to survive healthily may be about as much as a pension in wealthier countries but would be less in places where it is cheaper to live or in poor countries.

I suppose there has to be a cut of between the good guys and the bad guys somewhere. I suppose you could say that a good guy wilfully uses all that he has for God's will and someone in error does not.

What should I say instead of "IF you have more income than MOST, you must use the EXCESS for God."?

Wouldn't you have to use all your time or money for God to forsake all and follow him? We still may need some useful tools to do God's will such as a computer, car, etc.

I have changed a couple of statements on my site to say:
The Bible strongly states that if you have more possessions or earn more money than most, you must not use your excess income or possessions for yourselves. Every Christian should seek to use all their time and money for God's will.

I have taken out the word "excess" in a few places to indicate that people should use all their money for God's will. I have always believed we need to use all our time or money for God's will but I may not of wrote it like that because it could cause confusion. I thought it could indicate I am saying people are guilty even if they buy a modest amount of healthy food etc for themselves. But then again I suppose you could say it is God's will to buy and eat a modest amount healthy food yourself. Although I believe God would prefer us to share the food and not exchange money. But this is not always possible.

Your articles and comics that I have read so far are excellent. The only one I have trouble with is a couple of points in "The Tent-making Myth" Paul may have not been making tents for money. He may have done it voluntarily to help someone.

It could be ok to make tents earning money if he was offered the job in a non-corrupt system with believers as apposed to competing for work for money in a corrupt system. On the other hand in today's society it would appear wrong to apply for a paid occupation as a tent maker. This is because you would have to compete for the occupation, which could be judged as desiring money. Also the workforce is so corrupt and inefficient and involves yoking with unbelievers. However there could be an exception today if a Christian were offered a paid job as a tentmaker from a Christian friend to work with Christian people to make tents. That is if he did not seek or compete for the paid job and he used his wealth for God's will. Paul may have only been making tents 2 days a week and not 5. I don't think you can say Paul is definitely wrong for making tents, as they are a useful item unlike many things today. He also may of not been seeking money but just offered it and used it for God's will. This is vastly different to almost everyone today who are seeking and competing for money and don't use it for God's will.

The Bible does not say that money is bad. There were cases where Godly people exchanged money but it did not rule their lives like it does today. It is the love of money and the corruption you have to be part of to get it which is the problem. In most cases you have to disobey God to get money due to this corruption. But if the system was different it could be ok in moderation.

I have also being studying some information on Satanic symbols lately from an interesting site at cuttingedge.org I wrote to them as well and he did say the common 5-pointed star is a Satanic symbol although it is not as dangerous as some. I am not sure if you can easily find 7 pointed stars like on the Australian flag to use.

At least we agree on almost everything. I don't think you will find two people on earth who will fully agree on everything. What I say to people if they are very close to what I believe we can work together and bury our differences.

Please let me know what you think. I will continue reading your articles and giving feedback. Your feedback on my sites will also be appreciated.

Also have you ever seen a supernatural miracle such as a healing from God that could not happen naturally?

I look forward to your comments.

Regards Richard.

Hi, Richard!

We agree with you about the Bible indicating an equality and sharing of wealth. It is precisely because of the kind of verses that you quoted, that we live the way we do, i.e. with every member of our community renouncing all private ownership, and sharing all of our wealth amongst ourselves. That is the only way to have a non-corrupt system.

I remember thinking when I was younger that there were some jobs which were "okay" for Christians, and there were others that were "corrupt" (because they dealt with things like gambling, cigarettes, or pornography). But I found when I was in the workforce, that EVERY job was part of a corrupt system, and it wasn't the nature of the job itself... it was something deeper. So that even an idealistic organic vegetable farmer living on a little plot of land in the mountains is still linked to the corrupt system in some way that will destroy him spiritually. Most of what I had been fighting against were the RESULTS of what was really corrupt, but the real corruption just came from the "love of money" itself. If making money was the motivation for anything that I did, then that "root of all evil" would end up corrupting my life sooner or later, no matter what sort of work I did.

I now understand that in the kingdom of heaven there is no NEED for money as such. We still use it in our dealings with other people here on earth (and it even changes hands between us and other Christians), but between ourselves and other Christians there is no need to either "buy" or "sell". The contrast is like the contrast between "WAGES" which result in sin and death, and "GIFTS" which lead to God and life. (Romans 6:23)

Your letter said that the Bible indicates that we "need necessary things but not unnecessary ones". THAT was the sort of statement that I was referring to in my earlier letter. It's like saying that it is OK to have a "reasonable house". Where does the Bible even SAY that such things are OK, much less define what is "reasonable" (or "necessary") and what is not. It is precisely the MOST necessary things (food and clothing) that Jesus commands us to take no thought for in the sermon on the mount. He makes it clear that he is not just asking us to cut down on our luxuries. He's asking for ALL of it.

I know that you look at someone like us and see that we have clothes on (well, maybe you can't see that from there, but no, I'm not sitting naked here in front of the computer!) and that we have things like a computer, etc. and you can say to yourself, "YOU haven't forsaken it all." But, for starters, the truth is the truth even if WE are not practising it. That's the point I was trying to make with all the talk about a pension being the OK cut-off point. We all want to make our own level of "poverty" the right one. But the Bible standard set by JESUS is EVERYTHING. The other point is that we DID come a whole lot closer to forsaking everything when we first started living like this. We had friends drop us and our four children by a creek out away from any towns, with only three little two-man tents, a change of clothes, and some schoolbooks to use in teaching our children. But over the years, God has given back to us many times over what we gave to him. Yet even what he gives us now must be held very lightly, so that we can drop anything and everything at a moment's notice, which happens fairly often.

It is unfortunate with the Bible that we can so easily peek at the ending and know before we start that God is going to give back to those who forsake all, and on that basis, it is easy to start a doctrine that says you don't have to REALLY forsake it all in the first place. It's true that what God wants is a spiritual forsaking of dependence on ANYTHING except him. And yet when we start saying that anything apart from God himself is exempt on the grounds that it is "necessary", then we are missing the point of the whole exercise. Please pray about the truth in what I am saying, because it seems that you are really genuine about your desire to find God's will, and I think that if you ask God about it, you'll find that what I am saying is true.

You suggested an alternative for using the pension as a cut-off point for how much money a person could "earn". But, what we are saying is that you don't need to earn ANYTHING. You just need to work for God.

You wrote:
"Wouldn't you have to use all your time or money for God to forsake all and follow him. We still may need some useful tools to do God's will such as a computer, car, etc."

Leaving aside your use of the word "need", God may GIVE us such things as a computer, car, etc. which we would use for him. So it's not a choice between using our money for God OR using our money for a tool to be used in his service. Both are the same. There are a lot of tasks that we will end up performing AFTER we have let go of all of it, and started just serving him with our bare hands.

You said that you had a problem with a couple of points in the tent-making myth, and it does seem that the problem is that, while you may reject the myth that says Paul worked FULL-TIME making tents, you still want to have him working part-time making tents, and being in the will of God by doing it. If you read everything that the article was saying, i.e. about Paul being pricked in his conscience and then moving out of Aquila and Priscila's house and giving himself full-time to the work of the gospel after that, then you will see that WHATEVER the relationship was with Aquila and Priscilla, it was not what God would have wanted. Jesus said that the harvest is plenteous and the labourers are few. If the whole world were the kingdom of heaven (as it will be when Christ returns), then it is true that we would have Christian farmers, Christian truck drivers, Christian road workers, etc. But right now, we are a revolutionary army, and our main job is to propagate the message of the kingdom of heaven. As you have rightly pointed out, there is competition for most jobs today, and there really is no point in a Christian taking a PAID job away from some poor systemite who wants the money, when our Boss has told us already that he has heaps of unfilled vacancies for people to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

You say that the Bible does not say that money is bad. But Jesus did say that you are going to "despise" (i.e. "hate") either one or the other... God or mammon. You see, there was no money in the Garden of Eden, and there will be no money in the kingdom of heaven. The whole money SYSTEM is bad (not the paper or silver or gold as such, but the system that led to us using it in the first place). It's a bit like saying that guns are not bad or heroin is not bad or that malaria is not bad or even that sin is not bad. As long as no one uses them or becomes addicted to them, then they are just "out there" someplace not affecting anyone. But it's a pointless distinction when you consider that we all use money, and it has a tendency to use us in return. The money system does not work unless people believe in it and work for it and defend it, and that is what the Bible says is the root of all evil. So I would rather defend the devil himself (who at least was a good angel before he fell) than to defend the money system which he has used to destroy the world.

I do not share your concerns about things like Satanic symbols. I don't think the devil has ever actually "created" anything in his whole life. The best that he can do is to copy. So I have no fear of him controlling me through such things as symbols. As a Christian, I see my job to be that of moving into hell and taking over the devil's kingdom. The Bible says that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against us. Gates are not an offensive weapon; they are a defensive weapon. We are the ones who need to be on the attack. So why not steal his silly five pointed star and use it ourselves?

Finally, you asked about us seeing supernatural miracles. Yes, we have. But we also know that Jesus said an evil and adulterous generation seeks miracles, and it is specifically BECAUSE of this that he said they would not get them. Nineveh repented just at the PREACHING of Jonah, and that is the "sign" that people need to see and hear today... people who will preach the truth with or without miracles.

Christian love and blessings!


P.S. We still haven't heard back from you with regard to you actually becoming part of our community. Have you considered it?

-- visit our website: http://www.jesuschristians.com

Hi Dave

Thanks for your letter.

There could be some cases where people are best to remain in their position like King David or Daniel. That is if they do God's will, stand up against corruption and do not be part of it. They could have a higher influence to remain in that position as more people would listen to them than if they were not in that position.

Have you taken note of what Bob Katter is doing? He is our local member of parliament here in Tolga. He was a member of the National Party but he could see their policies policies were getting worse. He was often on the media speaking out against his own party. Most of the others were following the party line but he was standing out slightly similar to a man of God and rebuking the corruption. Now he has become an independent and therefore has made a move to come out and be separate from any political party. I don't know if he is a Christian but he could start a great move of God if he became a strong Christian in his position. That is if he took more steps to oppose all evil. If Bob isn't a saved born again Christian and were thinking of becoming a Christian he would be turned off if I said he had to give his position away. However if I said to him that in his case it may be best to keep his position but change from accepting some evil industries to opposing them and standing up for Christ, he may make a very influential Christian. He may use all his money for God's will if he became a Christian. If he did this he would be working for the Lord and forsaken all.

But for someone not in a paid position it appears wrong to seek that paid position. They should seek the Lord and do his volunteer work. This is totally the opposite of what almost everyone is doing. You are about the only people who agree with me here that I know of so far.

It would be good to work together with you. I think one of the most important things is to find other Christians and Christian groups that are very committed. We can then build up a network of other Christians that can be encouraged by us and they will also encourage us.

I know we should not seek signs and wonders instead of God. We should seek God and doing his will. It says we should desire spiritual gifts and it would really help if we could find someone with those gifts who could impart them into our lives. It would really help us become better Christians if we become healed and use God's gifts. Please let me know who uses God to perform supernatural gifts. I would like to be able to go to a hospital with them and pray for people. If something supernatural did occur it will encourage us and encourage others.

I used to be in the AOG church but my mates and I who went there never saw any supernatural healings. My friends believe in them but can't find anyone who is genuine and consistently moving in the spirit. It is sad to see some of my friends are disgruntled and faithless Christians. That could change if there is a great man of God with the gifts of the spirit to influence us.

Forsake all could mean forsake all corruption as everybody needs something to survive such as food and water.

Sometimes it is more practical for someone to have sole use for a tool as long as it is used for God's purpose. For example it may cause confusion if a lot of people shared a computer and also stop people getting on there to do God's will. But the purpose should be to use everything fully for God, to share wealth and help the needy. God really owns everything.

Making money should not be the motivation. It should be to do the Lords work which could be growing vegetables to supply to other Christians and if they offer to pay you something for it that is fine but we should not be seeking the money.

You are right we should use all our money for God's will as some people earning less than a pension spend their money on unnecessary or evil things. I have seen people in the third world spending money on jewellery instead of practical things, which would make them, live or do God's will more efficiently.

How did you manage to get a computer and roof over your head?

Did you look for a house or a computer or was it just given to you out of the blue by someone? What lead you to get them?

You would have to search for or put in an effort to find some things like necessary food or clothes otherwise you would be unhealthy, uncomfortable and less able to do God's will. Some tools to do God's will can take a large effort to find. For example a suitable computer or the best method to spread the gospel. There are many choices and you could easily make the wrong one.

How do you afford to be able to go to India?

Did you read information summarised on my Christian site, which is better explained at http://www.trueconspiracies.com/suppression.htm
It is cheaper to photocopy several copies once you have done printouts. Charging 20 cents for a page would deter many people from wanting a print out and therefore restrict the number of people seeing your information. Also this seems to be contradicting what you are preaching. I know you think that it will encourage people to value your information more but it would still act as a deterrent because many people do not like sharing their credit card details online and people do not have time to post a few cents to people.

On my page at http://www.truechristianity.com/papers I encourage people to value my material and use it for the correct reasons by stating the following:
"I will not charge anything for the cost of printing, photocopying, postage or handling. But please be aware this is valuable material and it is meant to be looked after and shared with others where possible. If you have finances and are happy to donate to this ministry it will be much appreciated."

I thought if you did something like this it would help to get more people interested in distributing your papers. Also if you charge money for your papers people may think you don't practice what you preach because you state that money is bad and things should be shared.

It is great to see we agree on most things. I thought I could ad something like the following to paragraph to my site. What do you think?

We should not make too much of an issue about controversial things but instead unite on what we agree on. If we let the minor points of disagreement hinder us than there may be no groups in the world because there may not be a group of people in the world who agree on everything. If you mostly agree we can work together.

Your help is appreciated,
Regards Richard.

Hello again, Richard!

Thanks for all the time you have been putting into writing to me. Well, I guess that our relationship is a good example of how hard it is to get two people to agree on everything. I really like the initiative that you have taken in getting the kind of vision that you have about what could happen if people started to take the teachings of Jesus seriously. Please keep it up.

It is pretty much what we (my wife and I) went through about thirty years ago, when we first started living like by faith. I guess that most of the differences between you and us have grown out of things that we have learned over the thirty years since then. I would like to be able to share more of them with you (so that it won't take you thirty years to learn the same lessons), but I tend to get impatient. Please forgive me when I come across too hard.

I think that there are three really fundamental lessons that have been the hardest for me to learn, and two of them are very similar.

The first lesson is that God's will (or understanding of the situation) is not necessarily our will (or understanding of the situation). Everywhere I go, I hear people telling me about what their opinion is of how things should be, but rarely ever do I hear of anyone being willing to DROP their opinions and open up to whatever God wants to say. Until we can do that, we will be eternally frustrated.

The second lesson is that there is something very fundamentally wrong with the institutional church, and that it is, in fact, APOSTATE... as was predicted in the Bible. We all want to find a way to make the truth work from INSIDE the religious institution, and to preach the gospel of Christ without upsetting the institutional church. It simply is not going to work.

The third lesson, which is very similar to the second one, is that there is something even more fundamentally wrong with the entire system, regardless of what political colour you paint it with. There are not "good" systems, "good" jobs, or "good" people apart from those who are willing to place God absolutely first in their lives. If he's not No. 1, then he is their enemies. He's just that jealous.

Anyway, those are my main lessons. But it's not easy to get them across to anyone.

Christian love,

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